Graven Images

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Re: Graven Images

Postby Angelic Enigma » Sat Jan 02, 2010 8:04 pm

Servant of Christ wrote:
Jup wrote:OK, so let's look at the logic for a second:

God says "don't kill" (murder) meaning "do not take it upon yourself to kill another person under your own initiative"

God says "go and kill these people", this is not a contradiction as it is an instruction by God Himself, not the judgement of men.

Now apply this logic to the carving of images and see what you get?


I think you're interpreting the commandment too literally. Killing in self defence or in just war, also, would not be wrong. It isn't so much commandment not to make images for the sake of not making images, it is a commandment not to bow down to them, which means to worship them. And the Church will agree with you, that that is wrong.


But when it comes to the Last Supper, we aren't literal enough... :|
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Re: Graven Images

Postby Servant of Christ » Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:08 pm

Angelic Enigma wrote:
Servant of Christ wrote:
Jup wrote:OK, so let's look at the logic for a second:

God says "don't kill" (murder) meaning "do not take it upon yourself to kill another person under your own initiative"

God says "go and kill these people", this is not a contradiction as it is an instruction by God Himself, not the judgement of men.

Now apply this logic to the carving of images and see what you get?


I think you're interpreting the commandment too literally. Killing in self defence or in just war, also, would not be wrong. It isn't so much commandment not to make images for the sake of not making images, it is a commandment not to bow down to them, which means to worship them. And the Church will agree with you, that that is wrong.


But when it comes to the Last Supper, we aren't literal enough... :|


Some things are intended to be taken literally, others not so. Those are in different books, hundreds of years apart, and in entirely different contexts. It's irrelevant to compare them.
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Re: Graven Images

Postby EnderGate » Sun Jan 03, 2010 3:05 am

Exodus 20 wrote:(4) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. (5) Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; (6) And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.


Pretty clear to me...
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Re: Graven Images

Postby Christ-is-the-light » Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:48 pm

What exactly is a graven image?
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Re: Graven Images

Postby Angelic Enigma » Sun Jan 03, 2010 11:20 pm

פּסל
pesel
peh'-sel
From פּסל (A primitive root; to carve, whether wood or stone: - grave, hew.); an idol: - carved (graven) image.

Graven: deeply impressed; firmly fixed or carved; sculptured: a graven idol.
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Deuteronomy 4

Postby The Crusader 1000 » Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:06 pm

And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness.

And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.

And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.

And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.

Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves; for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire:

Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,

The likeness of any beast that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,

The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:

And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them, and serve them, which the LORD thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.

But the LORD hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day.

Furthermore the LORD was angry with me for your sakes, and sware that I should not go over Jordan, and that I should not go in unto that good land, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance:

But I must die in this land, I must not go over Jordan: but ye shall go over, and possess that good land.

Take heed unto yourselves, lest ye forget the covenant of the LORD your God, which he made with you, and make you a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, which the LORD thy God hath forbidden thee. :shepperd :shield
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Re: Graven Images

Postby judechild » Wed Jan 06, 2010 4:20 pm

The Crusader 1000,

by that do you mean that we can never make any kind of statue?

I also do not go for Jup's logic; God does not go back in on Himself. When He says do not murder, He maeans do not kill an innocent person. He doesn't give a commandment, and then tell people to break it.
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Re: Graven Images

Postby Jup » Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:02 am

I believe my logic comment has been misunderstood, quite possibly read with a particular bias in mind as a result of long argued issues - none of which was my intention.

If you re-read my comment you will see that I specifically differentiated between a man taking it upon himself to determine the ending of anothers life (sin) and God determining when that life was forfeit (not sin). There is no double standard, and I never argued that there was.

I apologise if I didn't make that clear enough, but the logic stands, which leaves my comparison also valid.
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Re: Graven Images

Postby judechild » Wed Jan 13, 2010 5:33 pm

Jup wrote:If you re-read my comment you will see that I specifically differentiated between a man taking it upon himself to determine the ending of anothers life (sin) and God determining when that life was forfeit (not sin). There is no double standard, and I never argued that there was.

I apologise if I didn't make that clear enough, but the logic stands, which leaves my comparison also valid.


I understand your logic, but believe a basic premise is in error. God forbids the destruction of the innocent, that is clear. To say, though, that God means "do not take it upon yourself to kill" is I believe an unsupported jump. The comparison, then, to "do not take it upon yourself to make an image of something" becomes equally muddled.
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Re: Graven Images

Postby EnderGate » Sat Jan 16, 2010 1:31 pm

EnderGate wrote:
Exodus 20 wrote:(4) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. (5) Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; (6) And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.


Pretty clear to me...


Still, according to the scriptures, a graven image is: any likeness of anything that is in Heaven, etc... Is a statue of Jesus not something intended for the likeness of that which is in Heaven?

Consider wisely, even Solomon with all his wisdom from God, when credited to himself, failed at this...

Jeremiah 51:17-18 wrote: (17) Every man is brutish by his knowledge; every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them. (18) They are vanity, the work of errors: in the time of their visitation they shall perish.


God bless,
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Re: Graven Images

Postby Angelic Enigma » Sat Jan 16, 2010 11:50 pm

EnderGate wrote:
EnderGate wrote:
Exodus 20 wrote:(4) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. (5) Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; (6) And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.


Pretty clear to me...


Still, according to the scriptures, a graven image is: any likeness of anything that is in Heaven, etc... Is a statue of Jesus not something intended for the likeness of that which is in Heaven?

Consider wisely, even Solomon with all his wisdom from God, when credited to himself, failed at this...

Jeremiah 51:17-18 wrote: (17) Every man is brutish by his knowledge; every founder is confounded by the graven image: for his molten image is falsehood, and there is no breath in them. (18) They are vanity, the work of errors: in the time of their visitation they shall perish.


God bless,


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