Graven Images

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Re: Graven Images

Postby Genesis » Fri Jul 17, 2009 2:23 am

I suggest reading your Bible.

Exodus 20:4 - Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:


Seems quite clear to me.
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Re: Graven Images

Postby Jup » Fri Jul 17, 2009 4:27 am

I tend to read the bible as if it were God actually speaking to Israel, and in spoken form:

"Exo 20:3-6
(3) Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
(4) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
(5) Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
(6) And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments."


Could easily be taken to be one commandment - reiterated and emphasised due to the fact that Israel were notoriously stubborn and thick headed.
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Re: Graven Images

Postby SolusChristus » Fri Jul 17, 2009 5:22 am

Genesis wrote:I suggest reading your Bible.

Exodus 20:4 - Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:


Seems quite clear to me.


I suggest reading your Bible in context.

Exodus 20:4-5
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;


So what, I'm sinning because I'm making a statue of a man (e.g. The Thinker) or I'm sinning because I'm actually bowing down to it?
"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that naturewill reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life." Eph. 6:7-8
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Re: Graven Images

Postby Genesis » Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:50 am

So true Jup.

George... Don't get smart.

It is quite clear, thou shalt not make unto the any graven image. It doesn't matter how many verses you tack on the side of it, it still means the same thing. It doesn't matter if the subsequent verses tell us not to worship them, decorate them or stick them up our noses, it tells us before any of that not to even make them. The first portion of the commandment was not made void by the second, it was simply bolstered. If the second portion hadn't have been given, people would justify idol worship by claiming that they didn't make the idols, someone else did, so it's ok to worship them.

So, the Bible says don't make them and don't worship them. Is that clear?

Catholics justify their idolatry by claiming that they don't worship the statues, but the Bible is telling us that they never should've been made in the first place.

Idol worship in its most base form, the worship of images. Four hundred trillion images of the saints, what for? To please the eyes, to satisfy the soul. It is death to the spirit.

My uncle died not long ago, a staunch Roman Catholic. When challenged about his statues, oh, we don't worship them. We just use them to help us focus our attention on the Lord.

To me, that speaks of a lack of faith. Compensating for a lack of faith by creating something more tangible to hold on to. Can't worship the Lord in spirit, must worship Him in the flesh.
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Re: Graven Images

Postby SolusChristus » Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:44 am

So if I make a "graven image" of anything, for any purpose I sin?
"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that naturewill reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life." Eph. 6:7-8
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Re: Graven Images

Postby Genesis » Fri Jul 17, 2009 6:40 pm

If you take a photo for the sake of keeping memories, I don't think that would fall within the context of the commandment.

However, even those images can become idols too, if we're not careful.
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Re: Graven Images

Postby EnderGate » Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:14 pm

ya graven images... not all images.

Just like it is the love of money that is the root of all evil, not the money itself.
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Re: Graven Images

Postby Jup » Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:22 am

H6459
פּסל
pesel
peh'-sel
From H6458; an idol: - carved (graven) image.

H6458
פּסל
pâsal
paw-sal'
A primitive root; to carve, whether wood or stone: - grave, hew.

It's not hard to argue that advances in technology could not have been forseen, and that we ought to take them into consideration, however if you consider the effort it took to craft an idol back then, and the fact that its purpose for being crafted is deliberate, it's not hard to understand what the intent of the commandment is.
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Re: Graven Images

Postby SolusChristus » Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:43 am

Jup wrote:H6459
פּסל
pesel
peh'-sel
From H6458; an idol: - carved (graven) image.

H6458
פּסל
pâsal
paw-sal'
A primitive root; to carve, whether wood or stone: - grave, hew.

It's not hard to argue that advances in technology could not have been forseen, and that we ought to take them into consideration, however if you consider the effort it took to craft an idol back then, and the fact that its purpose for being crafted is deliberate, it's not hard to understand what the intent of the commandment is.


I see. :)
"Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that naturewill reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life." Eph. 6:7-8
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Re: Graven Images

Postby judechild » Sat Jan 02, 2010 3:53 pm

Genesis wrote:Catholics justify their idolatry by claiming that they don't worship the statues, but the Bible is telling us that they never should've been made in the first place.


Hello Genesis,

Please, we do not worship statues. I'm a bit confused by your complete negative against statues, though. After all, if God really did mean "No statues, period." He couldn't order the Israelites to build statues then, could He?

To me, that speaks of a lack of faith. Compensating for a lack of faith by creating something more tangible to hold on to. Can't worship the Lord in spirit, must worship Him in the flesh.


If I may, you would make a very good angel; humans, however, are both body and spirit. We do not believe that to worship "in spirit and truth" means to worship "in your mind"; but with both body and spirit. Beauty, and all creation, is from God; we use it to worship Him through art, music, our bodies... everything good. Jesus, after all, is the image of the Father, and He was tangible and comprised of body and soul as well.
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Re: Graven Images

Postby Jup » Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:36 pm

judechild wrote:
Genesis wrote:Catholics justify their idolatry by claiming that they don't worship the statues, but the Bible is telling us that they never should've been made in the first place.


Hello Genesis,

Please, we do not worship statues. I'm a bit confused by your complete negative against statues, though. After all, if God really did mean "No statues, period." He couldn't order the Israelites to build statues then, could He?


If you reread his comment, you will see that Genesis never makes the claim that catholics worship the statues, only that this is how they justify the statues existence in the first place.

Would you mind posting the scripture where the Jews are instructed by God to build a graven image?
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Re: Graven Images

Postby Angelic Enigma » Sat Jan 02, 2010 6:46 pm

Jup wrote:
judechild wrote:
Genesis wrote:Catholics justify their idolatry by claiming that they don't worship the statues, but the Bible is telling us that they never should've been made in the first place.


Hello Genesis,

Please, we do not worship statues. I'm a bit confused by your complete negative against statues, though. After all, if God really did mean "No statues, period." He couldn't order the Israelites to build statues then, could He?


If you reread his comment, you will see that Genesis never makes the claim that catholics worship the statues, only that this is how they justify the statues existence in the first place.

Would you mind posting the scripture where the Jews are instructed by God to build a graven image?


Uhh...what's "idolatry" mean in that sentence, then? :|
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Re: Graven Images

Postby Servant of Christ » Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:10 pm

Jup wrote:
judechild wrote:
Genesis wrote:Catholics justify their idolatry by claiming that they don't worship the statues, but the Bible is telling us that they never should've been made in the first place.


Hello Genesis,

Please, we do not worship statues. I'm a bit confused by your complete negative against statues, though. After all, if God really did mean "No statues, period." He couldn't order the Israelites to build statues then, could He?


If you reread his comment, you will see that Genesis never makes the claim that catholics worship the statues, only that this is how they justify the statues existence in the first place.

Would you mind posting the scripture where the Jews are instructed by God to build a graven image?



Exodus 25:18-19 - make two cherubim of beaten gold
Numbers 21:8-9 - Moses made bronze serpent and put on a pole
1 Kings 6:23-29 - temple had engraved cherubim, trees and flowers
1 Kings 7:25-45 - temple had bronze oxen, lions and pomegranates
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Re: Graven Images

Postby Jup » Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:28 pm

OK, so let's look at the logic for a second:

God says "don't kill" (murder) meaning "do not take it upon yourself to kill another person under your own initiative"

God says "go and kill these people", this is not a contradiction as it is an instruction by God Himself, not the judgement of men.

Now apply this logic to the carving of images and see what you get?
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Re: Graven Images

Postby Servant of Christ » Sat Jan 02, 2010 7:48 pm

Jup wrote:OK, so let's look at the logic for a second:

God says "don't kill" (murder) meaning "do not take it upon yourself to kill another person under your own initiative"

God says "go and kill these people", this is not a contradiction as it is an instruction by God Himself, not the judgement of men.

Now apply this logic to the carving of images and see what you get?


I think you're interpreting the commandment too literally. Killing in self defence or in just war, also, would not be wrong. It isn't so much commandment not to make images for the sake of not making images, it is a commandment not to bow down to them, which means to worship them. And the Church will agree with you, that that is wrong.
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